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bro IP address: Logged Posts: 1399
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Holocaust denial is not a crime in the UK. If it was David Irving (sp) would have spent time in UK prisons as opposed to an Austrian one. The UK, Ireland and Scandnavian countries vetoed the proposal for the sake of freedom of speech.
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Dud IP address: Logged Posts: 2312
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I think that making Holocaust denial a crime is a very serious step in the wrong direction. This is coming from someone whose father lost most of his family during that dreadful time. I can understand why it hits a raw nerve, especially in Germanic places. But I think it is wrong as well as pointless to legislate against thought. It goes against the very fundamental basis of freedom. In the past we have seen examples where the State/Church has taken this approach to supress the truth, imprison and even kill. I can, in the future, see people wanting to use similar arguments to make the teaching of evolution a crime. People in a civilised state should be free to question existing norms, put forward alternative views - no matter how extreme or unpalatable they may be. The scientific, philosophical, technical, medical, musical ... worlds would have stagnated if recieved wisdoms and norms had not be open to question. Idiocy should be fought with reasoned argument, vile thoughts with appropriate condemnation and revulsion - not the law. The fact that we have aided in a persons arrest for a thought crime is very worrying!!! What if McCain were to win the election, die in office and we end up with a creationist Palin as president - what if (rather improbably and fantastically considering the inbuilt checks and balances) it became law that the teaching of evolution became a crime there. Would the UK arrest Americans on our soil for teaching it? Is it ever right to blindly submit people to the laws of another land? Homosexuality is illegal in many places - would we consider sending "offenders" back for punishment; or women who had disobeyed their husbands in contradiction of the native law? You of course get into difficulties when a person's thoughts effect another person - through incitement, intimidation etc but is this the case in this instance. Whenever I hear someone denying that for which there is ample evidence I just think "saddo nutter". "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (Voltaire/Hall/Tallentyre). Edited: Dud - Fri 3 Oct 2008 (11:40AM) |
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Tobyjames7 IP address: Logged Posts: 946
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ha ha, I quoted that very quote back on the 1st or2nd page dud
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| Dud IP address: Logged Posts: 2312
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Tis one of those oft used and oft malattributed aphorisms. |
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| Dmanlamius IP address: Logged Posts: Too Many!!!
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Twas my msn name for a year, lol. What was "thought crimes" from? Brave new world? 1984?
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| Dmanlamius IP address: Logged Posts: Too Many!!!
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You can't change it when it suits Exactly what Pat Condell is saying about Sharia law, ffruk. Which IS now partly in our country, and in our courts. Laws are changed for others... Why a problem when Condell says it? Stereotypes again? |
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| ffruk IP address: Logged Posts: 895
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Bro: There are laws against Holoicaust denial in the UK as Nick Griffin has been prosecuted and found guilty of the crimes. Davidf Irving was very careful in the UK though not so careful in Europe hence his prison sentence. Dman: Sharia Law isn't the law of the land here. Bits are used as a token gesture buit nothin that is set in stone as law. The latest holocaustr denier to be nicked can only blame himself. He was bl;atently stupid going to another country running his mouth off then gets upset when he has to suffer the consequences. Most people feel they shouldn't have to respect the law when visiting other countries so therefore how can those people complain when our laws aren't respected? |
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| ffruk IP address: Logged Posts: 895
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Dud I agree that nothing at all should be censored but at the same time people have the right to protest at something they don't agree with. Edited: ffruk - Fri 3 Oct 2008 (12:28PM) |
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| Dud IP address: Logged Posts: 2312
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Mais naturellement. |
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| Spike IP address: Logged Posts: 3155
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What was "thought crimes" from? Brave new world? 1984? 1984. George Orwell. Probably my favourite book of all time. Still scares the life out of me even to this day. |
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| bro IP address: Logged Posts: 1399
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EU STATES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL Austria Belgium Czech Republic France Germany Lithuania Poland Romania Slovakia. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6263103.stm
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| onion IP address: Logged Posts: 4311
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I find it absolutely hysterical that holocaust 'denial' is a crime. Yes, I know it goes hand in hand with anti-semitism, tends to be rather provocative and all that, but it's still funny that to deny something can land you in prison. It's just semantics that amuse me, along with the outrageous hypocrisy of it. "Do you believe that settlers from Western Europe murdered 90% of all the indigenous people of the west of the Americas?" "Well, no." "You're nicked, sunshine." It gets less funny when, closer to home, people on this website, amongst millions of others, bang on fervently about freedom of speech while simultaneously condoning attacks on it.
Do you believe that anyone, anywhere should be free to say anything they want to? If you say yes to this you must accept that should some oddball decide he's going to stop off at your house on the way to work every morning from now on and scream "You're a cunt!" through your letterbox he is perfectly free to do so and should be tolerated. Bearing in mind you're free to do exactly the same thing at his house. And his mum's, if you want.
Holocaust denial, by the way, is a description that misses the point. If you've only read what is in the papers or that which is otherwise easily available you probably don't know what it really is. I didn't, anyway. Now I've read more about it I feel a little more educated than when I'd read less, incredibly, and less inclined to jump up and shout and point when it comes up.
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| Dmanlamius IP address: Logged Posts: Too Many!!!
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Oh, and the Swastika as well. That's just brilliant. BULLSHIT! That symbol always had positive representation before those dickheads got hold of it. People still use it today in the typical sense in which it was created. Falun Gong/Dafa use it, for example. It's bad enough that the Chinese governmennt are opressing and killing people for doing excercise, and now europe will ban their symbolic identity. Yes that guy is a twat for denying the holocaust existed. However, the fact that he is allowed to say it is a million time more important that the deed.
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| Dmanlamius IP address: Logged Posts: Too Many!!!
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"Do you believe that settlers from Western Europe murdered 90% of all the indigenous people of the west of the Americas?" Fucking hell, Q, I hadn't even considered that! Hypocrisy at it's finest! |
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| ffruk IP address: Logged Posts: 895
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Do you believe that anyone, anywhere should be free to say anything they want to? If you say yes to this you must accept that should some oddball decide he's going to stop off at your house on the way to work every morning from now on and scream "You're a cunt!" through your letterbox he is perfectly free to do so and should be tolerated. Bearing in mind you're free to do exactly the same thing at his house. And his mum's, if you want. We already came to that conclusion!! |
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| ffruk IP address: Logged Posts: 895
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Bro I stand corrected. Nick Griffin was also prosecuted for Race Hate stuff and the Anti Semetic stuff was thrown in with that. |
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| onion IP address: Logged Posts: 4311
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That was about the most inconsequential response I could have hoped for. I'm almost startled, actually. |
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| SideshowGez IP address: Logged Posts: Too Many!!!
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Is it like when you got arrested for that Bull Dyke Holocaust incident Onion? |
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| mtnluvver IP address: Logged Posts: 6241
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the reason i haven't commented properly is because i find the idea of freedom of speech really difficult. i agree with it in principal, ie. i don't like the pat condell videos really, i don't think he should say the things he does but i don't think he should be prevented from saying them. but then the concept of complete freedom of speech relies on the human race being fundamentally "good", which i don't know if i can believe in. if we implemented complete freedom of speech in this country tomorrow, would ethnic cleansing begin on monday? or would their simply be an all-against-all war? if the bnp wasn't so taboo, how popular would it be? it's just a bit scary, but then 1984 is an equally scary thought, so i really don't know & i'm open to opinions on the subject. Edited: mtnluvver - Sat 4 Oct 2008 (1:34PM) |
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| JSatch IP address: Logged Posts: 2675
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pat condell is a funny guy and speaks a lot of sense. he's obviously (or maybe) a rational and reasonable guy. he does give me some knee-jerk reactions during some things he's saying but generally when i re-listen he's making a joke or i missed the prelude to the comment. My personal view is i'd prefer people to believe whats true. the way we can know the truth is to use logic and reason. Beliefs inform our actions and thats why these muslim and christian extremists do what they do. i'd prefer to live in a world where not only was this not going on, but i knew i was free from its oppression. this world just isn't promised by our laws anymore (not that they ever have been). I'd like this to change. I have no problem with religious people. i do have a problem with religion - it is a mind virus. people effected by this mind-virus can do the whackiest of things (see history of the "civilised" world) I do think we bend over as a society to make everyone happy. no one really challenges our crazy beliefs. Imagine if we all had a costume. the guy wearing a holocaust denial t-shirt or a 9-11 truther t-shirt would be constantly harrassed in the street. the turbans and the burkas - we wouldn't dream of causing offense. "hey man, how come your wearing that turban? do you beat your wife? want to kill the infidels?" the answer will mostly be a categorical "no!" and this is great! the religion is the thing saying these things, i'm glad that at least some muslims have grown up a little. i own a qu'ran and a bible. i've seen some messed up things in both. ideally. we want to get rid of the biggest shame of humanatiy- harmful, embarrassing and barbaric religion. it gives me comfort that it seems on the way out. but while that happens, the people will only shout and kick louder on every side... including mine. |
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